Welcome to Isit Whitefriars? This section is designed to help members identify whether their glass is Whitefriars or not.
And the Conclusion is....
No Conclusion has been entered yet!
by Elizabeth Anne Holdsworth on 10/04/06
Bought these recently on ebay without benefit of this site. Seller says valuers and whitefriars web site say definitely Whitefriars - I have grave doubts. Opinion of site members would be appreciated. No pontil mark.
66 vote/s have been added to this item!
Hi Emmi, David, Paul, Mike, Liz,
I'm a terror for getting myself into tiffs on the net. I was once kicked off a mothers' group (those post-birth hormones can make people cross...)
It's difficult to read the tone of an email without the normal facial cues--wasn't there a study that showed that people were only able to tell whether a comment was sarcastic 50% of the time.
Secondly, it's too easy to just dash off a comment without thought for how it might be taken.
Thirdly, there's the "internet disinhibition effect", where people become far more efflusive (either positively or negatively) than they would be in real life.
I think some feelings have been hurt here. Paul was probably a bit sensitive to start with, but then the comments escalated and everyone is a bit to blame.
As a veteran of something like 10 years of nasty internet scraps, I think it's probably worth everyone being very careful both before they post, and when they read what someone else has said. Try not to take it personally - even if it was meant nastily it's not worth you feeling upset about it. Chances are that it was just badly expressed, and even if the person was extremely rude, they probably didn't really mean it that way.
I'm not being sarcastic at all here, just so that you know, and excuse me being a know-it-all :).
(Now, I duck before the rotten eggs fly from all sides...)
Hello, David55. I am sorry to see that you have taken sides like Miles did for me, it seems. All this does is winds people up even more on a disagreement we probably all wish to forget & does not include you. If anyone suffered abuse on here it was me - everyone I have shown this row have felt that two people have instigated it with their almost pack attack attitudes. However, I am very open minded about it all & accept that I may have been to blame initially, although not fully justifying others reactions. Firstly, I feel Miles, whilst I appreciate his points/support, should have stayed out of it really. I also am big enough to admit that I should not have been so negative, then people may not become so defensive, hence some reactions. However, there is something called respect, & perhaps this should work both ways, perhaps people should respect others opinions even if they don't agree with them. I also need to value others feelings more. If someone does have an emotional attachment to their hobby then that is their business not mine. I should respect this. I too have items ( of glass!!) that I will never part with because I like them & maybe I have some sort of emotional attachment to them too.
Often a row can get out of hand & I feel this one has! I hope the whitefriars people treat it as a tiff it is as one thing it does show is that people have a passion for their product - maybe some people like having big brother socialist style forums who intervene all the time & treat you like children - surely its better to get something off of ones chest? Remeber we are human after all - killing the passion takes away the whole point if you just do not care. Please though Miles, no more calling David names - personalising a disagreement sends it up more as EH did to me - its not necesssary & not nice.
I have been a member of this site for a few months & offered a few contributions in the little time I have. I do read it though & have gained valuable knowledge from the likes of DF & ES in identfying pieces. On the whole they are quite accurate & informative - exactly what you require from a site such as this. I would regard this site as one of the better ones & would suggest that anyone reading this one off row to set it aside as it is a great site to use, esp. some of the links on the home page - highly recommended ( although they don't know their Skruffs from their Ingrid Glass - ha ha ha!!). Anyhow I will apologise to Emmi Smith for not respecting her right to an emotional attachment to her glass, I was wrong to judge. In fact I can understand in many respects what she means, & I really should know better. I apologise to the Whitefriars site for allowing myself to be enmbroilled in this conflict. I have looked through this row very carefully (& with unbiased help!!) & feel Iowe no one else an apology. Best wishes, Paul.
Emmi Smith26/04/06 Much appreciate your comments David 55. Thank you very much.
I only pop into this message board occasionally. I spend most of my time at the Glass Message Board - to be honest all of my W/F needs can be met there - many of you in this thread are also members. I have to say that I am disturbed at how Elizabeth and Emmi have been treated - why is this allowed on the W/F board - the whole thread would have been cut half way through by the moderators on GMB. My advice to you Elizabeth is get to http://glass-time.com/messages/index.php?sid=d871f97dc28968562097955790d60a0e (if you are not already a member). Oh and boys don't bother getting nasty with me I won't be here to read it - see the rest of you on GMB
David Fletcher24/04/06 Thank you, my friend.
Miles Metcalfe24/04/06 Oh what an adult response from DAVID FLETCHER !! (how unexpected!!!) Do yourself a favour Scoble & don't reply to this complete prat!!! Reflect on yourself Fletcher take a long look - you are a complete jerk pal. It is immature, low IQ idiots like you who think they govern this site, just because they have nothing else to do with their time but spend all their lives on here. Your type of behaviour ruin forums like this - it is worse than the abusive types!! Your possessive backward thinking behaviour clearly needs attention - a mental hospital visit may sort your problems. Why don't you do something useful with your life? I have retired so I have earned the right to waste my time!! Try to get a life DAVID FLETCHER . Your dear friend, Miles Metcalfe.
David Fletcher23/04/06 Good.
Thanks for the advice on what to do with bullies David - i trust it was aimed at me - unreal - i dont really need it, I did exactly that twenty years ago - yes it worked. I dont need to hide behind a keyboard either - thats for your friend to do - trust me I dont need to. Unfortunately with text & email it is not easy to pick up someones humour/tone & I guess they can take things grossly the wrong way. The sly digs by Emmi & Liz are not welcome & unnecessary. I have always used this site properly on the occasions I have had time to. Cheers for your support Elaine & Miles, but I can handle these know all jokers myself. Anyhow best wishes to you two, I shall leave the singular brain cell snakes who regulary use this site to rest in their pit.
Quite often those who were bullied become bullies. This nonsense on forums etc, is common place. It is not new and is really sad. Hiding behind a keyboard safe from harm.
As for bullies do what I did at school. Gave them a slap!
Bung your glass on here and find out if it is Whitefriars or not. Nobody gets paid to do it. Someone has to give a yes or no. If you don't like the answer go somewhere else. No need for any abusive comments. It is not clever.
Miles Metcalfe22/04/06 I really cannot believe the comments left by Elizabeth Holdsworth & Emmi Smith. My comments were clearly tongue in cheek yet you have both launched a snide attack on Mr. Scoble. I apologise to you Mr. Scoble - I had not realised that this would draw such a vile reaction. Both Emmi Smith & Holdsworth seem happy dishing the snide comments but cannot take it back when, clearly, someone with a sharper tongue fires back! Both ES & EH should be ashamed of the way they have escalated a non-existent problem with their delinquent BITCHY remarks. It was I who had the last say EH prior to your sadistic outburst so if you have something to say then aim your vile remarks at me. People have tried to assist you but all you have done is side with one person because they have manipulated you (very easily) to side with them against a well informed member. I joined up to this site the other day but after the experience I have had at the hands of both Emmi Smith (two faced) & Holdsworth (no mind of own - uses a CHILD as pawn in arguements she created - how low & vile!! Poor kid!!) I shall be reconsidering my membership. You two really are the pits! I am amazed that Mr. Scoble has not used stronger language against you both - you deserve it. I hope Scoble follows up his threat to hand your comments to his solicitor Holdsworth - as a retired Brief myself I can assure you that he will have a strong case of defamation!!! You both have manipulated a situation of bullying another member - i hope whoever supervises this site bans the pair of you. MILES. PS my wife has something to say. MY NAME IS ELAINE. I HAVE READ EVERY COMMENT ON THIS PAGE. I CONCLUDE THAT ALTHOUGH SCOBLE MAY HAVE BEEN RATHER NEGATIVE AS MENTIONED RE. HIS COMMENTS HE IS ENTITLED TO THEM. HE OFFERED FURTHER CONSTRUCTIVE COMMENTS TOO. THE WAY BOTH EH & ES HAVE SET ABOUT HIM & MY HUSBAND IS A DISGRACE TO THIS WHITEFRIARS SITE. PINKY'S BANAL COMMENT DID NOT HELP & WERE JUVENILE. I AM NOT AFRAID TO VOICE MY OPINION. IN MY OPINION BOTH SMITH & HOLDSWORTH ARE COMPLETE NASTY BITCHES WITH CLEARLY BAD INTENTIONS TOWARDS CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS. A VERY SORRY AFFAIR INDEED LED BY TWO SORRY INDIVIDUALS. ELAINE METCALFE.
Paul Scoble22/04/06 I have just read further Elizabeth, you call me cruel and empty - you really do not know me!! I have worked as a nurse for 15 years - and I am cruel??? Not in my nature or job description I have you know!! A straight to the point no nonsense realist yes but not cruel or empty !! Your unfounded PERSONAL ATTACKS traits that all BULLIES USE, are based upon your knowledge of me as a person ZERO. That speaks volumes of your judgemental attitude. I find you OTT comments sad, pathetic & childish. Are you sure you are old enough to be a mum? Show your son your comments & what a great mum he has!! I think you are very over sensitive & if you actually read my comments initially (maybe you didnt read your ebay description either!!) then you would not have embarrassed yourself by misinterpretting my comments on two separate occasions!! I have refrained from being offensive unlike yourself, throughout - read my comments again!!!To me you have read Miles comments as mine having read your response - looks like you got it wrong yet again!! If your reaction reflects your character then you must be a very unpleasant person indeed.
Are you lot for real? I have printed off your comments Elizabeth for my solicitors attention, i find being called a BULLY very very offensive indeed, having been bullied for ten years at school - HOW DARE YOU? My comments may have been negative in your opinion but we live in a democracy where we can air our opinions freely - clearly you & ES do not respect this point of view. I shall say no more on the matter - any right thinking individual can read your intollerant comments and make their own minds up - I know who the real bullies are!! You & ES get arsey with anyone you don't agree with. I am best rid of you very sad individuals. ALL I DID WAS AIR AN OPINION -REMEMBER THAT !!!! Your combined set to behaviour is well over the top !!
Elizabeth Anne Holdsworth22/04/06
You're welcome Emmi and Josh sends his regards too. I never had to deal with bullying at school in the 50's and 60's but I've learnt a lot from Josh this morning. Anyway off to York to look at the Viking exhibition and I'm going to treat him to something special.
Emmi Smith22/04/06 Your comments (and your grandson's) appreciated Elizabeth. I have never claimed to be an expert in fact I am a relatively new collector but I do believe in sharing whatever (albeit limited) information. If I have been proved wrong, then I am not shy to apologise. Considering the large membership of this site, there is only a handful of people who regularly contribute and are willing to put themselves in the front line for any criticism that may arise. If my name appears on many of the postings, it is only because I like to keep the site "alive" and certainly not for any ego building purpose. I have had my fifteen minutes of fame many a time in my past life, so don't need it. It is now interesting to see that "someone" is now adding votes to these vases to shift the balance of opinion.... I do hope that Mr. Scoble and buddy, will learn to use this site for which it is intended in future and show it a bit of respect for those who sometimes spend a lot time trying to find answers to the questions which are posted here.
Elizabeth Anne Holdsworth22/04/06
Hi all, showed what was being written here to my 13 year old Grandson this morning and he laughed. He told me about the classes in bullying they had at school and how the only way verbal bullies could feel any sense of self worth was through causing negative responses in others. He pointed out how Paul WAS being negative in his first posting to me and how he obviously felt gratification in the responses he got from me. He then chose to misinterpret my next posting as defensive - wrong bully Paul - I was trying to put forward a constructive reason for coming to the site. But you chose to see it as a reason to gloat and feel good about yourself. So childish bully in mans clothing I take back any apology I made to you, I name you as a bully who has low self esteem and from now on I ignore you. I suggest "Ms Metcalfe" whoever HE may be gets together with Paul (if they haven't already) and they stroke each others ego. For the rest of the people responding to these children (or is it child) the best thing you can do according to experts on bullying is ignore them. His and his phantom friend have lives that are so empty that he needs a response from you, so whenever he and his "friend" write their sad little words ignore them.
Emmi you have my whole hearted respect as do David and most others on this site. However my saying that to you, like the other morning, will probably lead to more vitriol from him or his phantom friend. My Grandson noted that when I paid a compliment to you the other day he became even nastier towards you - the true sign of the envious bully. My response to laugh at him the other morning was wrong - he is a cruel and empty individual who is unable to see beauty in anything but a profit. I just pity him.
Miles Metcalfe22/04/06 Hello, a most entertaining debate!! Firstly, Mr. Scoble, I have you well ahead on points, it does seem that a few people on here do take themselves rather far too seriously! Have you ever watched eggheads on BBC2? A bit like them - up their own bottoms!! They clearly do not understand your very dry sense of humour & have taken it very personally. I think you have Pinky on the ropes at the very least - my goodness, that IS all we are - intelligent apes - wake up Pinky! Surely you can do better than a Terry Pratchet quote???? If you think anything else then you are very deluded indeed - I pity you. Anyhow back to the glass, I am new to the site although have read it for some time. Some who think they know it all often do not!! (Based on forty years glass collecting) Anyhow, Royal Castle made different sizes & styles of vases. I believe these to part of the Royal Castle group of vases. The Luna range by Davidson had a more fine lined/bark type pattern & is slightly heavier. I hope that ES & DF can find room for another 'expert' on this site, clearly they do not want PS valuable & on the whole, accurate evaluations. Best wishes to you Elizabeth, you really did stir up a hornets nest with these & perhaps exposed one or two established personalities (esp. ES & Pinky) as not being very pleasant or accomodating. I won't know how to carry on in life if they don't like me !!! Miles.
Well Pinky - look at your self in the mirror this morning & you will see that is all we, well most of us anyway, are! Good, I hope you enjoyed your reality check, welcome back. I bet you sat up all night thinking of that one...have any ideas or opinions of your own rather than TP? One would doubt it......nice vases eh? Have a nice day.
.......I think it might have been Terry Pratchett who wrote something to the order of: 'human beings, without things or possessions, are simply intelligent apes.'
See you at the Zoo Mr Scoble.
Paul Scoble21/04/06 Oh Emmi you are so precious aren't you? Is that the Royal 'we' ?? One must not forget that this site does not belong to oneself must one. Happy 80th Emmi !!! Keep smiling happy one!!
Emmi Smith21/04/06 Love to David! LOL. And do away with court jesters, we can provide our own laughs!!!
Paul Scoble21/04/06 oh nuts...i guess i will have make do with the court jester role then....no off with his head quips either!!!
David Fletcher21/04/06 Can I appoint myself as King of Whitefriars??? Emmi, will you be my Queen???
Elizabeth Anne Holdsworth21/04/06
Paul Scoble21/04/06 Oh there are some very strange folk in the world (yes I am one of them)!! I only came on here to air an opinion!!! Firstly, Elizabeth, you misinterpretted my comments (twice) & became defensive so I felt it was necessary to explain to you that they are not personal. Secondly, I now have Emmi Smith, seemingly self appointed Queen of 'is it whitefriars?' now becoming very churlish towards my opinions - it is just glass Ms. Smith. Finally, Elizabeth, you did not read my previous comment & had a pop at me for that too! Where did I mention you becoming emotionally involved with a piece of glass? I think you will find it was ES who has declared having an emotional involvement with a lump of glass. Possessions mean nothing to me - some are practical - some are nice to decorate the home. I feel it must be a sad reflection on modern day society when these possessions are now fulfilling people's emotional requiements & needs. Try a getting human being, a pet or even a large cake instead! Have a nice day girls!!! : ) PS
Elizabeth Anne Holdsworth20/04/06 Emmi thanks so much for your supportive words but I have no big hang ups - I have been involved in Professional decision making too long for that. I was origionally explaining to Paul why I misinterpreted his words and apologising for it and nothing more. Your breadth of knowledge about Whitefriars glass and your support for others on this site is fully obvious to me and should be to others. However Paul and yourself appear to have some sort of dispute here which is unfortunate and I have no wish to be seen as the catalyst.
Emmi Smith20/04/06 Paul, why on earth are you assuming that to be emotional about something is a sign of madness? And why do you assume we don't get out much. I have a busy and fulfilled life which just happens to include a passion for Whitefriars glass. If that makes me barmy in your opinion then fine, but I am not money motivated with my passion and I am not going to be arrogant in assuming you may be, although you do give the impression as such. And Elizabeth, mistakes are all part of the learning curve, we have all made them, and it's not a problem.
Elizabeth Anne Holdsworth20/04/06
Touche Paul, but if you'd seen and handled the vases I bought you would not have wanted them. I inherited some coffin vases that glisten and which have colours that give pleaseure. I enjoy the weight and texture of them to touch which is why I wanted some bark vases. If this is an emotional attachment then I freely confess to it. The ones I bought were light weight, dull and had no "life" for want of a better word. Thats why I started looking for a web site that could give me information.
Honesty and trust are words I beleive in so when I find out I have been deceived that annoys me. Not being taken for a ride is something I also have an emotional attachment to.
Your comments are interesting and thought provoking - even if they don't always reflect my own. Have a good evening.
hi folks, i am cynical & also a realist, most certainly not disillusioned (UH - bitchy bitchy now now???). i can see why people like to collect whitefriars - probably the same reason i collect scanny glass - however i dont have an 'emotional attachment' to my glass (lol) - i will phone the men in the white coats myself if that happens!! i like to get out a bit...fresh air is good brain food! if you liked these vases in the first instance Elizabeth then would it really matter if they were whitefriars or not? you shouldn't feel stupid for making an error - i have done it many times with antiques etc. its just one great big learning curve like life & cake making. eBay is full of bandits so beware !! Paul the disillusioned one who gets out quite alot thankfully!!
Elizabeth Anne Holdsworth20/04/06
Thanks Emmi, I appreciate what you have said. I have always bought glass because I like it and enjoy it, except for the dusting!
Emmi Smith20/04/06 I'd like to add, that the Whitefriars "market" has not dropped at
all. One TV auction result is not a reflection of what is
happening on e-bay, where most Whitefriars is sold. Currently
Whitefriars is achieving good prices and there is no reason why that
should change dramatically. And even if your motive for buying is
strictly for investment or quick profit, then there are no guarantees
for profit whether it's stock exchange shares property or any other
Emmi Smith20/04/06 Hi Elizabeth, just some reassurance. It is not easy as a new whitefriars collector to get it right every time, but you are doing the right thing by the research available here ( and also in whitefriars.org) and very soon you'll be finding things and instinctively knowing that it is certainly Whitefriars, even if the item is not one of the obvious patterns. It's happened to me and is very satisfying. So good luck. I think Paul is being very cynical and sounds disillusioned. If you only buy Whitefriars or any other collectable just for the monetary value then that's fine, but you have to ride the market up or down just as you would if you bought shares or property. If you buy because you love the glass and the histroy of it, then that more emotional involvement makes it enjoyable.
Elizabeth Anne Holdsworth20/04/06
Thanks Paul, just felt so stupid after I bought the vases, should have started reading first. I suppose I think other people see me as stupid too - especially now when I can see they were not Whitefriars or as you say Davidson Luna vases. Am now concentrating on looking at different vases, looking in my books then coming here and comparing with "is it whitefriars" and "mistaken identities". It took time convincing the seller that a) packaging was inadequate which is why one vase broke and b) that they weren't Whitefriars. He conceded in the end and since then has been very fair and above board with me.
Paul Scoble20/04/06 Hello Elizabeth, I was not having a pop at you when i said we have had this conversation before - just merely mentioning the fact that this glass often comes up & has the label of Davidsons attached to it by the regulars who visit this site when it is clearly not, even after I have shown a real Davidsons next to one of these! Nevermind - up to them, best wishes Elizabeth & i hope you get your money back - too many on eBay exploit others trust, Paul.
Elizabeth Anne Holdsworth20/04/06 Thanks Paul, I already have some Scandanavian glass - like it a lot, but I also like Whitefriars. I made a big mistake the first time I came here not looking back through previous "is it whitefriars" and hope I haven't done it since. I am sorry you have had the discussion before but at least I started to use the site oroperly and looked through mistaken identities. I would understand if you didn't know the subject which is my expertise - please understand I don't know yours but at least I'm trying.
Paul Scoble20/04/06 We have had this discussion about these before - i thoroughly believe they are not part of the Davidsons LUNA range. The weight is all wrong. The upper lip/rim is similar to Royal Castle & Davidsons but the texture is not. However, the texture does not resemble the Davidsons Luna range at all. If you look back far enough on this link you will see a pewter coloured Davidsons Luna vase & blue ashtray, a blue one like this & a Royal Castle all up loaded in the same pic. The differences are very clear. If you are planning to collect glass Elizabeth, you could alot worse than looking at Scandinavian glass. Far more contemporary in design than Whitefriars which is grossly over priced & rated in my opinion. Maybe on the way out of fashion too - a drunken bricklayer vase couldn't make ?80 on the latest FLOG IT TV show....the bubble has finally burst.... Remember only ten years ago you could pick whitefriars all the time up at a boot sale for 50p !! You wont find too much of tamara aladin, helena tynell or timo sarapenva - comparitively rare, very stylish & undoubtedly classy (everything Whitefriars is not) at my local bootsale! SMILE peoples!!!!!
Emmi Smith11/04/06 It's never too late (I can vouch for that) The books are great, but the
best advice I can offer, is to look through the catalogues on this
site, time and time again to get a "feel" for the glass. We are
incredibly lucky to have all this information on this site, so I
encourage you to use it. Go through the Mistaken Identities lists too,
you"ll learn so much. good luck.
Elizabeth Anne Holdsworth11/04/06 Hi Emmi, He has now offered me my money back but I have asked for confirmation that I will get postage too. I have learnt my lesson, became so enamoured of my coffin vases that I wanted other types of Whitefriars. Am now purchasing books and studying - an old woman that can learn new tricks! Thanks for the advice - nice people on here.
Emmi Smith11/04/06 Elizabeth, I just found the details of this completed listing. Seller
is very definite in his thoughts that this is Whitefriars, he doesn't
put any doubt in the description. So this is a clear misrepresentation
of the items. If you have already received them, then you should
get confirmation from seller that he will refund in full including your
return postage costs.
Elizabeth Anne Holdsworth11/04/06 Thanks for the advice Patrick. Yes I have begun the procedure - never had a problem like this before. Should we be discussing this here? Got my hand slapped by David earlier for asking something I shouldn't LOL
Patrick Hogan11/04/06 Hi, Did you use Paypal to buy these.? If you did you should get your money back because as David says they are 100% not Whitefriars...... Regards Patrick
David Fletcher11/04/06 There has been some disagreement as to who made these. What is important for this site is that it is NOT Whitefriars.
Elizabeth Anne Holdsworth11/04/06 Hi David, I'm on a learning curve here, Are you saying you beleive its Davidson or just reflecting the fact I think it may be.
David Fletcher11/04/06 Definitely not Whitefriars. Believed to be Davidsons.
Elizabeth Anne Holdsworth10/04/06 Just been going through the mistaken identity section - this site is so useful. One of these vases (one got broken due to atrocious packing) looks very like the Davidson lunar vase, dimensions are the same too. Has the upper rim like the Davidson vase too, bark pattern not completely to the top.